Tomorrow & Tomorrow & Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin

Hello, I'm Christina Young and you're listening to Gloucester Book Club's books and chat and on our Book Lounge. So for tonight I'll be joined by Liz and Zoe and we're going to be chatting about the wonderful book called Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin, which was published in July 2022. We hope you enjoy.

This is not a romance, but it is about love. Two kids meet in a hospital gaming room in 1987. One is visiting her sister. The other is recovering from a car crash. The days and months are long there. Their love of video games becomes a shared world of joy, escape and fierce competition. But all too soon, that time is over fades from view. When the pair spot each other eight years later in a crowded train station, they're catapulted back to that moment. The spark is immediate, and together they get to work on what they love making games to delight, challenge and immerse players.

Finding an intimacy in digital worlds that eludes them in their real lives. Their collaborations make them superstars. This is the story of the perfect worlds Sadie and Sam build, the imperfect world they live in, and of everything that comes after. Success, money, fame, duplicity, tragedy, tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Takes us on a dazzling, imaginative quest as it examines the nature of identity, creativity, disability, failure, the redemptive possibilities in play, and, above all, our need to connect, to be loved and to love.

Just be aware before you dive into our discussion. Then maybe one or two spoilers. I've got Zoe and I've got Liz here very comfortably seated on the book club sofa, ready to get really into this wonderful book called Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. So, Zoe, I think you read it later than Liz and I. We read it two or three months ago. You're really up to date. We're gonna have to catch up with you a bit. Can you tell the listeners what this book is about? Yeah, sure, I I I'm sure that it won't be a problem.

But I I read this book the past weekend and to try and summarize without too many spoilers, the story follows two kids, Sam and Sadie. They meet at a hospital in the late 80s and they're both obsessed with and they both love video games. The story is about how their relationship progresses through time. About how that develops, the things that happens in the world around them as they grow and start making their own games and the consequences of that on the lives of themselves and also the people around them.

That's a really good summing up of the book. There's so much in this book. Like listeners, we're going to try and cram it into half an hour. We may go over a bit, but bear with us, Liz. I know probably thinking about this book or when I first presented you with this book, you might not have. Being the person who would have picked it up in a book story, if you'd have looked at it, looked at it, how did you feel about reading it? Well, to start off with, I I had great misgivings. I sort of read the jacket cover and thought, well, this isn't for me.

I know absolutely nothing about gaming or people that are interested in gaming. Well, how wrong you can be, because in actual fact that's the backdrop of the story, but the narrative is actually about the relationships of the people. Against that backdrop, and I almost forgot about the fact that I didn't know anything about gaming and it wasn't my thing, the characters took over. So no, I I I actually was very surprised about how much I liked it. I closed the book and I felt so sad to leave those characters and no longer be with them in in conversation and their joy and their love and their sadness.

And I truly missed them when I shut the book. I loved the story and I didn't think I would. Because I thought it was aimed at a younger audience, and I've never been a gamer and my kids haven't really been gamers either. But I really feel it's one of the best books I've read this year, and I'm really surprised to be saying that Gabriel Zevin was creating characters that I was rooting for. That was so true to who they were that were loving and caring and and and unaware of their own shortcomings and.

Hyper aware. Of others that shortcomings, actually. But how did you feel about them, Zoe? The characters you mentioned, the three main ones, Sam, Sadie and Marx. Yes. I didn't quite mention Marks, but he becomes part of the story more and more as they go on. I think you've said everything I wanted to say. Really, Christina. You know, I finished the book this weekend because I had to talk to somebody about it. Immediately. I had to message someone who'd known about this to go, Oh my gosh, what just happened?

About 3/4 of the way through the book, we won't say what. And then just as you say, I sobbed at the end because I really felt sad that I was no longer able to hear updates about these characters lives. They felt very. Much like real people to me, and I think for me, being somebody who does enjoy video games, who grew up in the 90s and noughties, it had that extra element of emotional connection, resonance and nostalgia for me as well. It very much felt like I could have played some of the games mentioned Ishigo was coming out around the time that.

As a child I would have been playing games, so it really rang true it in that sense as well to the kind of games and the kind of technology that were being bought out at that time as well. Do you wanna talk about the types of love that was going on through this book? Because they were shared, weren't they, Among Sadie and Marks and Sam? Sadie and Sam never become lovers. But tell us a little bit about the different types of love that came out in this book. First of all, about the characters. I liked both Sadie and Sam because they were both had their own flaws.

They were by no means fully rounded, happy people. They both had their own fault lines and the story didn't try and hide those fault lines. So I think that made them more real in a way. I've always thought that they had more of a sibling relationship than they didn't have. A lover like relationship but they've known each other since childhood. I think one of the reasons halfway through the book or more than halfway through the book, Sam starts to have regrets that he never got together romantically with Sadie and he doesn't understand why he didn't.

The the there's a section in in the book where Sam actually says he's only slept with four people in his life, 3 girls and one boy. And sex really isn't for him because his whole childhood and later life is overshadowed by his disability. He associates his body with pain and not with pleasure. Therefore sexual fulfillment for him isn't really something that is going to happen. He can love, but he doesn't put it together almost with bodily pleasure. So I see Sadie and Sam more in a brother sister role.

Because brothers and sisters can fall out and fight and still love each other. Where his friends would say, oh get you, I'm off sort of things, but if you have a blood tie then you can withstand the brows and the squabbling. So I think they were never meant to. He describes her at one place as his work wife, I E he shares a huge part of his life with her and he loves her and she loves him. They know each other probably better than anyone else knows them, but they are not sexually attracted to one another.

It's love without the sexual passion. Do you think, though, and being playing devil's advocate here a little bit, that Sam has always hidden? His. Sort of love his sexual love, sexual desires for Sadie because of his disability, because maybe he thinks he'll never be able to kind of be OK good enough for her. And what do you think about that? So did you? Feel that? Yeah, I I certainly felt that not only due to his disability, but I think he's got quite a chip on his shoulder about coming from the east side of Los Angeles.

You know the lower class side. So not only does his disability come into play, but Sadie's from a world of. I would say upper middle class people in the Beverly Hills area. So she's from a a family, an old money kind of family. She's also from a Jewish family, whereas Sam is mixed race. So I think he has a lot of complexes about reasons in his own head about why he may not be good enough for Sadie or or for somebody like her, but the disability is probably the biggest factor in that, I agree. He says.

Well, I hid a lot of myself from you. I was poor. You were rich. Often during the book the the discrepancy in in money and funds comes up between them. She doesn't know what it's like to be poor and that he had a disability and he was Asian. Factors would be a turnoff. And some physical disability is woven throughout this novel, isn't it? In the real world and in the gaming, you know there is that from the moment that he. Meets Marks. He wants to keep his mangled foot hidden from his roommate. And he does that.

And he and there's a quote here. The main thing Sam did not wish Marks to know about him was that he had a disability, though Sam did not think of it as a disability. Other people had disabilities. Sam had the thing with my foot. And he was embarrassed. I think he was embarrassed by the fact that he couldn't walk far, and yet he pushed himself and he made himself walk miles and in great pain all the time, didn't he? Why do do you think so many folks view having a disability as a shortcoming or something that's not to be discussed?

And why? Why do we feel embarrassed to ask for help? Why does that happen to us? You've answered a question that's right up my alley. So I'm somebody who has cerebral palsy. I was born with a disability. But also when I'm not book clubbing, when I'm not podcasting, I also researching disability in young adult literature and looking at some of these concepts about why we feel shame and Sigma and disability. So I feel like, ooh yay, this is right on my street. And immediately what I thought when I was reading the book as well, I thought as a person who's always had a disability.

Like Sam, I don't have a mangled foot, but I do have problems equally with being slow, with walking, with movement, and I felt the way that Gabrielle Servin represented his shame about that. And the line in particular you picked out there about him not considering himself to have a disability but just to have a thing with his foot is very much how I would have considered myself in the time that Sam was at university. I I think that's quite common. Because I think there are some narratives that happen in contemporary society, and I like, as Liz alluded to, that neither Sam or Sadie are perfect.

So even with his disability, Sam, neither falls into the tragic stereotype of the Tiny Tim, the way that a nurse describes him the night before his surgery. But equally he's not this hyperbolic superhero either. I mean really he can be quite Pratt sometimes. To Sadie, he doesn't consider things from the feminist or even female point of view at all. So I think Gabrielle's Evan's trod a really close line here, but a a very good one in showing that disability can cause shame, can cause embarrassment.

But equally that some people may not see it that way. And I think given for the time in which Sam was acquiring his disability and considering it, American protections for discrimination against disability didn't come into place until 1990 when the Americans with Disability Act was passed. And in Britain this didn't come into place until 1995 with this Disability Discrimination Act, so becoming disabled in the late 80s. They wouldn't have known as a teenager whether people legally had the right to still discriminate against him, so I think perhaps that's that's a burden and an attitude he's carried throughout his adult life, despite things that have changed.

Well there's one funniest scene I'll I'll come on to comment on. He's still disabilities is is quoted with loss because it happened at the same time as the loss of his mother. He makes some comment in relation to, say, this child, though I don't like children, I'm not interested in children, probably because my whole childhood was one of pain, telling that funny moment. He has a girlfriend called Lola for a while and she's asking him all about this at his foot and everything, and are they going to have a physical relationship?

And she suddenly says to him, do you want to show it to me? And he thinks she means his penis, that she wants to have a look at his foot because he can't imagine anyone would actually want. And she actually means she wants to show me the stomach of your foot. But he his mind doesn't go there that anyone would want to look at it. Sadie, in a higher education starts having an affair with her teacher and he becomes her lover and he's called Dove, isn't he? In the book, Sam doesn't tell Sadie that he he knows that.

She's having an affair with her teacher. That relationship between dub and baby is quite strange. How would you view a relationship like that? At the present time it would be 100% no go and punishable by all sorts of consequences. But then at the time a much more lax attitude was taken towards relationships between. Lectures and their students. I think it was controlled and it was abusive. Unfortunately, at the time it wasn't as uncommon as it would be now. It was almost as if everybody turned a blind eye to it.

I mean, Sam sat for countless hours by a computer keyboard with Sadie knowing that she had handcuffed Wilts around her wrists. It didn't say anything. He didn't sort of say Where did you get those marks from? What happened? And she always has this anger for him because she thinks, though it's questioned, that she went to Darv and asked him to use their production engine for the game, even though she knew he knew that she was in an abusive relationship with Darv. I don't know whether he did know or not, but certainly she feels a great deal of anger about that.

Plus the fact that at one point she insists that it should go is the film, not just about. Child being lost at sea, but about a mother on shore losing her child and she relates that to the abortion that she had. Did you find I'm asking this to both of you? Really. Did you? I mean, she continues that relationship, not a sexual relationship. She does stop that at some point in the book, but she maintains a connection to Dove. Doesn't she threw out the book. I mean, he has set the standards for her work as a game designer and to some extent as a woman as well, I think.

And as a partner. Why do you think Zoe the she needs, she needs to maintain that connection to this guy who's clearly not been very nice to her at times. I don't know how she did it personally, but I think it was a very shrewd and a very wise decision to kind of. Keep pleasant with him, Keep him on the the phone list, the call list because you see those throughout the book. Without him they wouldn't be able to get the production engine as you say, but also further opportunities down the line come about because of him and and their relationship almost becomes one of mental mentee despite this emotional and sexual manipulation that happens when they're in a a romantic relationship.

When that's taken away, they very much settle into the. Relationship of mental mentee and I'm not quite sure how I feel about that, but it's absolutely fascinating to see that develop over time. It does happen this that particular student can be regarded as a protege, unfortunately sometimes almost as a mini me. This is a projection of my skills, my creativity. But I think what happens after the relationship is broken, when they come back together, they come back. More or less as friendly equals.

She's no longer his student. She's produced a lot of software in her own right, which he can appreciate is good. He offers him a chance to take on his class. Um, so I think when they get back together, they come as equals. It was when they were not equals that there was the problem of abuse. You sort of touched on it already. I think so, but in the book Sadie sort of considers how. Maybe their experience as designers would have been different if they'd been born a decade later. Think that I am a decade or so younger than the characters in the book, so I can certainly see how.

Whilst I remember and I feel nostalgic for the kind of grains and the way that they were created in the novel, I can 100% see how. Well, Liz and I were just talking before we started this podcast about how technology has revolutionized the worlds of higher education, of research, of learning, of compiling projects. It's just not the same as it was at all because because of the Internet. And whilst that gives a certain level of democracy, you know, in theory, in practice it's, it's changed the skills in the practice of what we consider.

Production, research, development entirely. It's a completely different beast now. Personally, there was over 35 years between my first degree and my second degree, and in the middle of those 35 years the Internet was invented and there is no comparison between the academic way of working at the beginning of those 35 years and afterwards. I mean it. And I I think the point that she makes that we had this sort of little window of opportunity. If we'd come along and try to do it earlier, there wouldn't have been the technical possibilities of doing what we did.

If we'd come along a little bit later, there would have been so much competition and commercial sort of rivals on the scene. So they had this unique window, I think. Let's turn for a minute to the character of Marx, because he's. Really the main creative role when he's at college. He's an actor, isn't he? That only seems to be limited to his time in college. How does he continue to sort of contribute to that creative process with Sam and Sody? He's like their producer. He's almost a bit like a muse for them.

He's an incredibly great organizer and he's really, actually a really nice guy as well. Point of keeping them together, He was keeping them going. What did you feel about Marx as a character? Yeah. I would say that his impact in the novel is huge. And I think perhaps because so much happens in the novel, it may take someone to go back and and do rereadings to see how prominent Marx is as a character, but yet somebody who's always in the background, so. For instance, something I didn't appreciate until the end of the novel, when things are recapped somewhat, is that Marx was the person who who came up with the name of of the first game each you go, that we've discussed a little bit already.

He really runs the minutiae and the whole business of unfair games, which is the business that Sam and Sadie developed. I think it's fair to say that neither of them particularly have any interest in business managements. They want to take the money they've been made and just continue to make games and they're very academic, creative people. But with the day-to-day runnings of the business, they have no real interest at all. And this is where Marks comes in on a practical level, let alone the emotional level you've described as well.

Nickname for Marks. I caught him the enabler because that's how I saw him. He was rather like that, crucial. Backstage person that makes sure that all the props, all the flats, everything is ready at the right time and in the right place.

I did actually read quite a few online reviews about this book and some people criticize the character of Mars because they said he was unrealistically too goody 2 shoes that a lot of people in real life would have got quickly fed up with the way that. Sam treated him at times that he was never really given any thanks or gratitude to the immense amount of practical work. And it isn't towards until towards the end of the book when Sam takes over the management of the company, that he realizes just how important Marks have been, that he was the one that smoothed the past.

I think this is there's a line that says Max was Max because. He allowed Sam to be Sam and Sadie to be Sadie. He let them do what they could do by doing everything they weren't interested in doing. So if you were in their shoes, they have these two deals, didn't they? For how would the novel have turned out differently if they'd chosen Salador? Yeah, it would have. It would have ended very differently. And also I think it's the first time we see outside of childhood. And the constraints and frustrations that Sam feels around his disability.

The first real sticking point between Sam and Sadie because one of the key parts of the open steal is that Ishigo, who both creators initially saw as a a genderless character that could be open to interpretation as being either a boy or a girl. Gender didn't matter, was very specifically to be a male coded character with the open steal, and so Sadie felt that. A lot of the deal was benefiting Sam, the male creator. She wasn't treated as a cocreator. She felt by the board of Opus. It was a very masculine, very patriarchal environment that they were stepping into.

And they think that really without that tension would have changed their dynamic as well. But I hate to say I think it was the right decision and if I was in their shoes, I would make the same decision. No, I would really be selling out against a lot of my principles, but I think it was certainly the wise decision to make at that time given the resources that they had. Provides a lot of the reason that Sadie feels so angry against Sam. There's a big showdown halfway through the book where she complaints that she was diminished by Sam, that it should go had had been genderless, but.

This is where the sexism of the industry comes in. Whereas one of the um leaders of of Oga says, well, games that have girls as heroines just don't sell as well as games that have boys as heroes. Um, and we we're out to make money on this. So it's got to be a boy. And in a way, because it becomes a boy as a computer figure, it tends to resemble Sam. And therefore, Sam looked on as the major dominant partner in the creation of that game, which she is really, really irritated by. Um. And the fact that he then, of course, is the one chosen to go and promote it while she's stuck back in in the, in her study doing the second itch go to where he's getting all the fame and attention.

Which I think is a little bit unfair because that kind of promotion is very, very hard work. But this? Professional rivalry between Sam and Sadie crops up time and time again. Whose ideas were they? Who had the better input? Um, they fought out quite a bit over that? I wonder whether she was actually not always justified in her being angry with Sam at that point, because in fact I do distinctly remember she said she didn't want to be out there doing the PR for the for the this game, you know, and he was really good at it.

He didn't think he was going to be good in it, but suddenly he takes off with it and he is really good at at promoting it and, you know, answering all the questions. And she didn't actually want to do that. And yet she's angry because he's getting all the attention. So, you know, there's jealousy that crops up between the two of them. And you're right, there's it does affect them and it affects how their friendship goes along as well. And in fact, it damages their friendship, doesn't it? But. It has quite a negative this professional.

There's one point in the book that says that they're motivated by different definitions of what success is. Left to her own devices, Sadie would be quite happy to do high conceptual art or go into more darker themes, whereas Sam just wants to produce successful games. Um, and he says to her, I didn't come into this business. I didn't go to Harvard before. He is much more commercially driven, but they remember he's been poor. She hasn't. Yeah, yeah, I mean totally get that throughout the the novel the the main characters, all of them really suffer devastating losses, don't they?

We we won't go into telling you listeners what they were, but you'll find out if you read the book and. But how do you think that the gaming helped them cope with those losses and. The pains, really. This is how we are introduced to Sam. Primarily. We see that when he's in hospital after the accident that causes his disability, in which he loses his mother, the really the, the only way that they can get him up and out of bed and interacting with anybody is through video games. It's through discussing the stories of video games, through the medium of that whole technology that enables Sam to talk to Sadie and.

He's not spoken to anybody for about 6 weeks since he accidents, so he definitely uses this as a way to work through his grief as a distraction. And there are other characters in the novel that we see using different kinds of games towards the end of the novel as a way of distraction from their own grief as well. Not necessarily a solution, but certainly a distraction from some of those those difficult feelings when real life seems quite unbearable. What I would say about that is that I had to, I had to find out why on earth she would choose that tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, which is associated in everybody's mind with Shakespeare, which is not, it's not a positive soliloquy.

It's it's it's somebody basically saying, well, life's pretty pointless and it'll just go on and on and on and so et cetera, whereas. The way that she, the author is using it is that it's much more positive because you can always try again. You might be successful the next time. And death in a way is to exist because you can always either press pause at one time. Sam, when he's seen Sadie, thinks if this was a game, I could press pause and restart. You never actually lose. You can go on tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow having another chance.

So I think it's a way of stepping into a virtual reality where the ultimate bad needn't happen because you could always get better at it. I was talking a little bit more about Women in technology. In the novel We got, Sadie and Hannah are the only two women in Dove Seminar in in that time. Women apparently was slightly over a third of the class when Sadie attended in the 1990s. Now seems to even fewer female software graduate graduates now than there were when Sadie and Sam were actually in school.

Even though more women and bachelor's degrees than men, Women do not seem to be going into a kind of career. So I mean, that's that's interesting, isn't it? Those figures that that's dropped away. So there are a lot more fewer female software engineers or graduates now than there were. I think that is something that's really captured, as we discussed in an earlier question about that sweet window of time, somewhere between the invention of the Internet and the proliferation of the Internet, where it's absolutely everywhere, competition is huge, and things that are so prevalent in society, such as misogyny and.

The kind of it toxic male environments that that can be established online and are sometimes associated with the worst parts of the Internet didn't yet exist. I'm sure they may have existed in some form, but I think really what's encapsulated in in this book is that the sort of late 80s, early 90s was really a time where because the technology was so new, it was almost the kind of utopia where it. Mattered to a lesser extent. I'm not gonna say it didn't matter, but it certainly mattered to a lesser extent whether one was male or female because the technology was so new that the demand far outweighed the resources.

So anybody who was skilled, anybody who was talented in this area could have a go. And I I think you see similar things with engineering throughout the ages where women were allowed to participate in equal numbers that. To begin with, because the space hadn't been claimed as either strictly male or female, representation was perhaps more equal. Video Games and This touches on a question that's asked in the book Does violence in video gaming reality? Does it actually have an effect on violence in real life?

Which is a really? Important topic. It's the same one that's taking place in pornography. Does pornography in video games encourage pornographic behavior by young men? But I think the sexism comes out quite a bit in the sense that it's become a very, very competitive industry. What will be made is what they think will sell. And even where there are women characters in these video games, they've got to be fairly Butch and fairly tough, and they've got to be able to fight and scale walls and do all the things that hero boys can do.

And I think there's quite a lot of misogyny question of what effect does it have on youngsters and girls video games as well, but if you constantly are being exposed to violent hype. Video games. And there's no point saying they're X-rated because if your brother's got one or the next door neighbor's got one, you can borrow. Yes. Experience. Something that I witnessed as a child growing up with video games as well is that places like Mapplethorpe. So this is the game that Sam and Sadie developed, which is much more a farming, home tending game, a more social game.

It gradually became more and more marketed towards female gamers and that's kind of the expectation that. Female gamers will be interested in things like Animal Crossing and will be interested in these sweet games where you nurture crops and perhaps don't do anything too important like Sadie's Oregon Trail. And that's definitely something you can see happening through the book as well, and it it just kind of manages to avoid that in the time that Sam and Sadie creates it. But once something's been established, then preexisting gender norms can be placed onto something that was once meant for.

Anybody who could access video games? Really. He wants to make more serious games and then when she's a student, she does the solution, which is one of those games that basically if you win, you lose and everybody loses because if you have a high score, it means that you failed morally. And her, Emily Blaster, the references to Emily Dickinson and things, there's quite a lot of literary references going in and Mark's being the. Tamer of Horses and the Iliad. I mean, she's actually squashed quite a lot of literary references into this novel.

There's a lot, there's a lot of allusions to classical literature woven throughout. This novel actually knows towards the end of. But he loves Satan. He's got had many opportunities to tell us so, and he never has taken them. Why do you suppose that he waits decades before he does it? And why does he finally let her know? Oh, that's a difficult question. I think again, it comes around to. Ultimately his disability because we I really the first portrayal the the first rift that happens between Sam and Sadie is that although they've become fast friends she's actually using the hours she visits Sam and and plays video games with him in the hospital to go towards sort of an award in her synagogue towards her about her bat mitts that she has to do so many hours of so-called community service and.

She treats Sam as community service, never tells him so and when he questions her about it, doesn't want to come clean and was like, ohh, well, you know, everybody had these time sheets when they come to visit people in hospitals. So I think although it's not referred to as frequently throughout the novel, in Sam's mind, that's his first impression of Sadie's view of him friend, but also somebody who was seen as a charity case. And therefore not somebody who can fulfill the role of romantic partner, you know?

I think it's Marks actually says to Sam when this question comes up, you know, was she just using me as a backdrop for her community award? The mark says it took fourteen months and 609 hours of conversation. Nobody does that out of charity. I think that she really did come to be extremely fond of Sam. But I think if somebody, if that happened to me, regardless of whether I went on to be friends with the person that would, that doubt would always be in the back of my mind. Seed has been planted, yeah, under, you know, if they're going to produce another game together at the end of the book, there's been another long period of time where they haven't seen each other at all really, but then they do.

And there's this big question mark at the end of the of the end of it. Will they produce another game together? That's why. Yes, Sadie's realized how much Sam held the business together when she basically opted out. She she she just walked away. I think they will do another game because when she is, gives him the prototype of the sixth level, which is taking off from that game, he wrote about her to win her back. Yes, I think they will. I think so. I think that's the beauty of it. I can see them both being octogenarians, nonogenarians and still.

I think Sam and Sadie. The characters will almost make games, whether they're for the public consumption or not. They'll be exchanging CDs, they'll be exchanging, you know, flash drives, whatever the device is in the future. The nature of their relationship is that they enjoy playing together. They will always play games with one another and. Whether they make them for public consumption or not. And that's really such a beautiful thing. And I think it's Marks that says individually you're both very gifted.

You can make excellent games on your own, but when you produce one together, there's an edge to it. Absolutely. I can talk about this book all night, but sadly we are running out of time. So all that remains is for me to thank Zoe and Liz for chatting with me on the sofa tonight. And can I urge you listeners out there to read this one. Chances are you won't regret it and we'll be back next month with another discussion then keep. You've been listening to books and chat with Gloucester Book Club.

You can find us on Spotify, Apple and Google Podcasts and many more. Come back and listen to us again soon.

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