Unsheltered by Barbara Kingsolver

0:13 Hello and welcome to Books and Chats. I'm Christina and I'm joined by my brilliant book club Co conspirator Ange. Hello. Today we're diving into Barbara Kingsolvers Unsheltered, a book that stood up quite the debate in our book club, didn't it Andrew? Just a little bit, yeah. Yeah. People weren't frightened of saying what they thought. They certainly were not. It really kind of split the ring, but some of us had totally absorbed others. Well, let's just say they were ready to throw it across the ring.

0:47 And I remember you saying that. I think it was that book that you said that you were going to. Throw, not throw books. That's just not the right thing at all. So we'll unpack what King Solver was trying to do and whether it worked. So settle in, grab a cuppa and we'll get to it. So I'll just tell the listeners what unsheltered about. So it is a dual timeline novel, one timeline set in contemporary New Jersey and the other in the 1870s. Both stories revolve around families living in the same crumbling house, and both families in very different ways of facing societal upheaval.

1:26 Yeah, definitely. Have you read any other Barbara King's Alba novels before this one?

1:35 Yeah, I had a go at that. Oh my goodness. What was it called? The one set in Africa. Oh yes, Poisonwood Bible. That's the one. Poisonwood Bible? Yeah, didn't get on with that. At all. No that that certainly isn't my favorite of her books. We did read another one in book club called Prodigal Summer. No, I loved that. Yeah, that was great. I really associated with her. So I think she can write strong women in difficult circumstances really well, and that came through in Prodigal. Yeah, she does do that.

2:08 Yeah, she does do that. And actually, most of her novels have strong women in, don't they? Yeah, I like that about her. Yeah, she really does do it well. So we got two protagonists in both timelines, really. We've got Willow in the present, we've got Thatcher in the past, haven't we? Thatcher's a man, by the way, not a past Prime Minister of the UK. But they're both grappling with change. They're both grappling with uncertainty in the times that they're living in and also the collapse of the structures they thought they could.

2:46 Rely on, yeah. Bearing in mind this book comes out in what 2016? What was happening in America in 2016? And yeah. Well, it was interesting times, very interesting times. It was the first. Was it the first time Trump got in? Yeah, I think so, Yeah, Yeah, yeah. So set against did she, if she was writing it against that sort of his campaign and him came coming into the election for the first time. There's a lot in here that draws parallels with what was going on about power control. Yeah. Yeah, and here we are going all back around it again.

3:21 I mean, from this side of the pond, we're viewing this with some dismay, aren't we, in the. So, yeah, I mean, those sort of themes that she grapples with, sort of sort of gentle politics really, isn't it, that run through often her novels. So there are some big themes in it. What are the big things did you think of well? We've got we've got our science, our Darwinism and our logic methodology going on with Thatcher and his he's a a huge advocate. Maybe of Darwin? So we've got that scientific background with him and then that is being challenged on so many levels.

4:12 And he's being bullied really, quite frankly, in his job in is it a school or a college? It's. A school? I think it's a school. Yeah, I think it was a school. Yeah, by by his boss, who has an entirely different world view. And we're looking at, you know, I suppose now you'd be calling him a flat earther, the sort of literal interpretation and the Bible. So you've got that going on, the science versus dogma, and then you've got all sorts of family dynamics across both timelines. So Thatcher has got himself into a situation where he's sort of being almost bullied by the women in his life and the expectations that those women have of a certain standard that they want to live and how he fits into that and how he must facilitate that.

5:01 And that's sort of it almost reminds me of Gone with the Wind and the Old South and the. You. Know it's dated, Definitely. He's. Yeah. So obviously he's torn, Yeah. And then in the new situation with Willa? Maybe 20. It will be around fact to the first Trump. Yeah, goodness. So 2016 onwards I suppose. Yeah, You know, they've got all sorts of of death and parental responsibility and lots of different things going on. So entirely different challenges, but then the same age-old family dynamic. How is this going to pan out on how we're going to navigate it and what will the toll be on the different characters?

5:44 Yeah. And also, I mean, they've got this crumbling house, haven't they, that they're living in in both areas, same house. And neither of those timelines have got the means to put this house right. You know that they they've got no money, basically. And the house is a character isn't? It. Oh, definitely, yeah. It it plays a huge role in it and the the unsheltered Willa's husband. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Isn't he? Doesn't get tenure in any job. So there's that lack of security and shifting sands that the family is built on.

6:21 But also in a way, the house was built on shifting ground, wasn't it? And that's part of the problem of it crumbling and threatening not to shelter them in in any sense of the word. Really. Absolutely so. And what was your first reaction when you finished the book? I did enjoy it, but relief I suppose because it's quite long. It is long. It's about over 500. Pages. Yeah, yeah. And as I was reading it, there were some sections I enjoyed more than others, but. I did vary. So when I was in the past, I was quite enjoying the past and I loved all the bits about the blossoming relationship between Thatcher and their retreat.

7:04 Where was that going to go? And he couldn't have turned that into anything, I don't think more than it. Was no, it was a bit of an age gap there, wasn't there as well. So there was that and I was very interested in him and their retreat and her research. That was fascinating. But then coming back to the modern day, of course, that's far more of a dilemma. That's that's that's far more familiar. Yes, indeed, Yeah, and. Our children and and Pickles that they get into and how we step up I suppose. I was more drawn to Willa's story.

7:41 It's not that I didn't enjoy Thatcher and and Mary Treat story, I did, but I was probably more drawn to Willa's story. That sense of middle age disillusionment, Yeah, I got. Exasperated with her, though, because I wanted her to stop. Being such a daughter, she was trying to hold that family together when everything's shifting. And I suppose I could see, I could identify women that I know that are trying to do that. And yeah, that, you know, this sort of middle-aged woman, she's she's trying to look after a grandchild whilst looking after an elderly father-in-law at the same time, trying to save this house from crumbling.

8:21 Yeah. You're just so much on their plate, which she takes on, you know, she, she does take it on upon herself, but there doesn't seem an awful lot of help around. No, for her does that, no. There's not. And I think we've all been her to some extent. I just. I really wanted her to give the son a good shake and say, you know, decisions need to be made here. Yeah, though can't carry on. But then that brings us to my favorite character. Go on with Tig, who was. Oh, Tig, yes, 'cause she was saying. An eco warrior, a person of her time.

8:55 And you know, more of those people might change the politics in America in the end. One would hope one. Would hope for president, I'd say. Definitely take for president. And she hadn't had a particularly easy upbringing herself, had she? She'd been in a sort of shadow of her brother, who was the golden child, and she'd gone off to Cuba, hadn't she? Whereas she'd been in a relationship with a guy who was married and there was a bit of an uncertainty about, you know, what had gone on there, why she needed to come back.

9:29 I guess because the visa ran out, actually. But she came back a really mature young woman, didn't she? Ready to step up? Yeah, yeah. With firm beliefs that she'd thought through and with things that were drawn from Cuba and what was going on there in terms of the environmental movement. And the car sharing thing was interesting. That's. Lovely. Yeah, Yeah. So I learned one or two things about that. She was head and shoulders my favorite character and it was lovely. The relationship that developed the the cross cultural relationship that developed with the family next door and how she carved out that.

10:08 There's a lot of hope in her story, not so much in Willows and Everything crumbling. And and. Tig had managed to build that hope from what was essentially a very peripatetic kind of childhood of of moving from place to place and never really settling down, making proper friends. One of our book club members, I think, called it a master class in structural collapse. Another one said she couldn't finish it, it was too preachy. So did you feel it was preachy? It's not a word I would have used, but.

10:46 Maybe. Some people find it like that. There was the. Bible. Bashing bit wasn't. There, yeah. And then there was the guy in charge of the town. Oh yes, I've got this name. Yeah, so. That makes me, and now we're talking about it. Think of It's a Wonderful Life, you know, Potter in Potterville, Yeah. And parallels. There weren't there. Yeah. So, yeah, there was. There was the the preachiness in the sense I guess they could have sensed it was from Tig with her. We have to be greener. We have to do better.

11:21 We have to step up. And then also in the way that the school was run with this sort of harking back to it says this in the Bible. So this. Must be right. Yeah. That's the only way it can be. Yeah. And. And they were served against Darwinism, weren't they, at that time? Yeah. That anybody who was coming through with those ideas was immediately, you know, kind of exiled. Really. He was exiled in that town. Yeah. And. And that made it. All the more. Remarkable that Mary Treaty merged as the sort of character that that she was because she was a meticulous, a dedicated scientist, and she was real, yeah.

12:01 Absolutely. She's real. She is a real historical figure and she was self-taught, wasn't she, as a naturalist? And she actually wrote and corresponded with Darwin at the time. And, you know, I've never heard of her. Says a lot, doesn't it? You know, why haven't we heard more about her? But you know, Barbara Kingsolver really brought her to life for me, for sure. For sure she was the star of the book in in Lots people's views, yeah. She was, I mean, that whole scene I loved, you know, where Thatcher goes across to the house next door where she lives to find his dogs that day, and he finds her sitting there with her finger in the what's it called?

12:42 What are they called those meat eating plants who come on this little plant fly trap? Yes, the Venus flytrap. She had her finger in it and she'd been sitting with her finger in it for about two hours or something to see how her finger got digested by it. You know, it's just really I. Think I'd blank that from my mouth? What's been too appalling, well, I've remembered more, is the the. Meticulous detail in her. Notebooks and the drawings and the sketches and the the clinicling of beautiful. She was a really strong woman, actually, quietly, quietly strong in the background.

13:18 But she actually, I think, kept Thatcher going through those really difficult times that he was going through. And you kind of wondered whether, like you were saying, whether something more was going to happen between the two of them. It didn't really come to that except there was a point. There's a point in the book towards the end, isn't there, where you sort of wonder because he's lying with his head. And they're like, yeah. Yeah, but then she sort of withdraws but still keeps something there about, well, I will come and see you now and again.

13:51 Yeah, come and visit me. And when she goes off to Florida to do some sort of research and wasn't there something like that? Yeah. So it made me look up Mary Treat online, actually. So like I Googled her to see more about it, but it was really interesting. So let's dig into some more of these themes, Ange. There's the first really is shelter. I mean, books called unsheltered. What does it mean, do you think to be unsheltered? We've sort of touched on this a bit already, haven't we? It translates to insecurity.

14:25 I think the political situation during both timelines didn't allow security for the particular families that we're talking about. South Unsheltered in many senses, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, there's a political situation, isn't there? And, you know, family roles and probably the other one is religion because that that felt quite heavy in the book. Was a severe a severe God if you like was not being pushed or finishing. Sort of. God, yeah. If you're in my house, I'm going to be sheltering you. And you say it another way.

15:04 Well, you're. You're unsheltered, Yeah. And literally, I suppose, when you think of that house crumbling down. Yeah, you know that it wasn't going to provide them with shelter for much longer. In a literal way, yeah. And also. The. Grandson. Oh yeah, the little one. Yeah. Unsheltered, wasn't he? You know the. Mother. Who would provide the shelter? And Willa, who was doing the whole sheltering thing? Well, his mother was gone. Yeah, his father had taken off to deal with the grief in the way that he felt that he could.

15:36 Yeah, and. So the tiny boy was unsheltered until. Tig. Stepped up, swept in and they had this wonderful relationship. Didn't they lots of sort of shifting around in this book, isn't it? It's like a world that's shifting, I feel, in both of those timelines. And I think probably obviously the Darwinism was a big thing in the eighteen 1800s. And then we've got the changes in America happening as well, haven't we, from the 16 onwards and still happening now. And that does feel unsafe. And I think possibly a lot of people in America at the moment feeling unsheltered because of all the changes that are happening there.

16:17 Absolutely. Yeah, really hard. Yeah. And it's sort of almost in in the states in some respects, harking back to that earlier timeline in terms of, you know, the erosion of women's rights and Roe versus Wade and resetting. You've, you've got, you've got certain kind of politics trying to wind the clock back to a time golden time, if you like. Well, it wasn't a golden time for women. No, certainly was not. And it's certainly not a great time for women now either in the States. It's really scary, yeah.

16:53 I suppose we could say maybe Thatcher's fight for Darwinism during Willa's struggle with political and environmental truths as well. Probably, yeah. I suppose maybe then it's more of a link between Tig and Thatcher. Yeah, in terms of them driving forward with their beliefs. That's how to make that better world, that is. True. Actually, I haven't thought of that before, but yeah, yeah, we're doing that the. First time we've talked about, I don't know.

17:26 Their little brilliance is coming out very late in life. Yeah, they. Might find wines, yeah. Maybe as well. They were sort of hoping to find shelter in each other. Would you say maybe rather than in the systems that are crumbling or. Yeah, I mean, were they? Was Willa and her husband? What did you think about them as a couple?

17:52 It's not a marriage I would have wanted to have swapped with her. No said. Well, I'll opt into that and have him. Thanks. She obviously. Thought he was the bee's knee. So didn't she, I think. He cared about her. But you see again, that's another slightly different cultural thing. In Greece, you're the boy in a big family, and you are the. Worshipped one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think he was. Quite happy to a large extent to have that continue to happen and of course he encouraged it to some extent with his students because the girl came round to the house, didn't she?

18:30 There, there is a slight question about his relationship with his students, isn't there? You know, whether anything actually was going on or not. But he certainly, I think liked it. The fact that they, all these young women seem to idolise him and of course that because he had been like the chosen boy in his family, it turns out that Zeke, his son, is also the chosen boy in that family as well. And yeah, that just seems to be. Yeah, I suppose that is quite common in Greek families, maybe older Greek families, more traditional Greek families.

19:07 The case need to. Read some Greek books. Definitely. There are some good ones out there. Yeah, Yeah, there definitely is. I think I liked it more than you did. I can't. Remember. I mean, would you say that you're you liked it with caveats? Are you in that camp? Yeah. I think that's where I would put myself and I would, I think I would recommend it to people with the caveat of actually this is quite long. So if you've got a big flight somewhere, yes. Very long flight, then go. With that, Yeah, Yeah, No, I enjoyed it.

19:43 Yeah. It wasn't necessarily expecting to because of the Poisonwood Bible. It's not. Perfect, I think, but it did make me think and it's bold and I learned things and I love it when I learned things. Certainly learned things about Mary Treat that I never knew. I think maybe it did feel quite long. You know, some people in book clubs said, I think at one point that. It was difficult to imagine a family, Willa's family, where because there was a lots of sort of political debate going on within the family between Tig and her mum and dad really that people were struggling to think that that was very realistic, that actually I, I did think it was realistic.

20:31 It was typical of my family, my. Family, we, we talk about political stuff all the time and in our our opinions about things. So to me that did not feel odd, no. That that felt entirely normal. And yeah. And in fact, it it gave me some hope for the future with Tig having the value that she does have. Yeah. And I love the way that Tig and her boyfriend have got what was it Johan or something like that? They were converting the garage to live in one. Well, this house just fell down. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:04 So a basic shelter that's that's sort of Mary and Joseph and everything else doesn't say it's. A building like that for the stable, you know, and then they were taking the little lad with them and they were going to bring him up and that was. Heart warming. That was not the right thing. Yeah, it did. It did. It felt like she was going to be a really good mum to him. He was going to end up with a completely different set of values because Zeke was Mr. Capitalism. His dad wasn't, really wasn't. No, not at all.

21:36 I did worry about his relationship with his dad, actually, because it seemed like Zeke actually wasn't doing very well trying to make a lot of money when he moved away. And actually, I don't think he ever really wanted a child that he. No, I don't think so. And he wasn't handling the grief very well. He sort just sort of pushed it down and cleared off and got on with his own life. Yeah. Yeah, which is a. Way of dealing with it, You know, there are many ways of dealing with it, yeah. It seemed like he couldn't, you know, he he'd have been very much in love with Helena, who wasn't there anymore.

22:15 And when she wasn't there anymore, he didn't really want, I mean much that. Must be a desperate situation. To be in. As a man, you've got very little control once, once the. Yeah. Once the child's conceived, then none of it. No. None of it's you anymore, no. That's right. And you're subject to the decisions that somebody else makes about it. That's. Right and. Then. And then of course, she goes and dies. Yeah. And there he is that. The life sentence if you. Like is 1. Way of looking at it and that's perhaps what it felt like to him yeah I. Think so.

22:51 And that's why in a way, I mean, Willa never asked for any of that either, did she? And then suddenly she's presented with this tiny baby to bring up and look after. And she's also she never really asked to look after her ageing father-in-law, rather actually, he made me laugh. I mean, he was so. Awful. Medicate. Stuff oh with his. Medicaid stuff and how he wanted to be buried in the in the cemetery but they couldn't afford it. That was so. They they went, didn't they? Anyway, yeah. They they took his ashes and sprinkled them around.

23:29 But I did feel he was so horrible. He was almost like a comic character in a way. But yeah, but he was. Sort of operating on another timeline, and maybe that's what we do. We operate on that timeline almost like train tracks. These are your tracks and it's very hard to get off them, even when circumstances and the scenery and the stations are all different for you to and what they were when you were. No, you know, I mean. Though that different timeline, different way of looking at things. And he?

24:00 Was a product. We're all the product of our upbringing and he couldn't be. Anything. It's a generational thing very often, isn't it, this stuff. But I I feel that you could easily pick up that book today and feel that it was the IT was now, you know, not nearly 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Because of because of whatever's going on politically, especially in America at the moment. I just think it's so relevant to now. So what would you say about recommending it? Would you recommend? Yeah, I would. I would recommend it too.

24:34 Yeah. I mean, it's clear, isn't it? Barbara Kings over. She's not going to be voting Republican. No, If if if you want to to read a book that's clearly written by someone who votes Democrat, then probably Barbara Kingsolver is she's your woman. She's she's your woman Democrat. I would definitely give it a recommend, I think. How many points did you give it? Do you remember? I think I was about 7-6 or. Seven. I mean 7. Actually, I think I did. Sevens worth, and I haven't talked about it just now.

25:09 That reminded me. Yeah, 7:00. Yeah. I know, yeah. I mean, we don't often, do we? We don't rant in book club very often about things. We, we, yeah, we are very civilized people. We often people in book club often disagree about books, but it's always very civilized. So I would, you know, urge people if you like Barbara Kingsolver, definitely, you know, look at this one. Demon Copperhead, I'm told, is a brilliant book, like, like Kings Over. I've not read that one again. If you're looking for a very big book, then you'd want that one.

25:47 I think it's about 700 pages. That one. It's huge, but it is supposed to be brilliant and based on David Copperfield, I think by chance to king so, but it's obviously an up to date a bit. I don't think it's one that we'll ever choose for book club because it's so long it. Was. Beautiful cast to that. That's a holiday read, I think, yes, yeah. I definitely think it's a holiday read. So thank you out there for joining us in this deep dive into Unsheltered. Whether you loved it or you loathed it, we hope it gave you something to chew on.

26:28 And and what do you think? What thoughts do you want to end with for the listeners out there? Well, I've come away a big fan of Mary Treat. Yes. Can you? If you're a fan of Mary Treat, I've been inspired by that. Go look. Her up, look her up. Yes, look her up and then and then tell. US, yeah. Tell us what you found. Yeah, because we loved us. If. You have read this book and you want to leave any comments below the podcast? Please do, because we'd love to hear what you think about it. So send them our way and next time we're talking, well, we're probably going to be talking about Sally Rooney's Internet.

27:07 So Rich couldn't. Be very much more different to this. Oh gosh. No, no, very different book. And yeah, maybe another Marmite read for some people. You either love it or you hate it more. Marmite More. Marmite. Yeah. Yeah. OK. OK. So until then, please do stay cool, stay cozy, and stay curious and keep reading. And we'll be back soon to talk to you again. Bye, bye for now.